tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160566690841415782.post1856217345367751368..comments2024-03-29T11:12:46.434+00:00Comments on Orphans of Liberty: The case against lithiumJames Highamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160566690841415782.post-27403394757819793282023-03-23T10:51:15.391+00:002023-03-23T10:51:15.391+00:00Tim, of course you are correct. I've had this ...Tim, of course you are correct. I've had this debate over and over on the bike forum where the conversation has been solely about batteries, so the differences between lithium-ion and metallic lithium has never arisen. As one of the electrical advisers on there, I try to discourage the use of lithium batteries.<br /><br /> "A lithium-ion battery can be controlled with water: the objective is to cool the cells that haven't ignited yet."<br /><br />There are quite a few types of lithium battery in use, some "safer" than others. For example LiFePo, though less energy dense is less prone to thermal runaway and more stable than Li-ion, but the results, from the point of view of a fire fighter are the same. "Safer" is not the same as "safe".<br /><br />To use water on an elecrical/chemical fire is stupidity in the extreme, yet that is the only tool a fire fighter has. Using water on a battery will short it out, making those as yet unignited cells pop open from internal pressure due to the violently rapid discharge. Once exposed to the atmosphere those cells will keep reigniting. The effect is much worse with salt water, container ships have had major fires when transporting EVs on an open deck. And I recall another incident in Germany a couple of years ago, where the fire fighters had to send for a privately owned portable swimming pool to completely submerge the burning Tesla, so that it could be transported to a scrap yard. The moment the car was lifted out, it reignited.<br /><br />Powder has no effect and only increases the danger of a dust explosion. Inert gasses such as CO2 simply get blown away. It seems that the only true way to extinguish an EV fire is to give it a wide berth and let it burn until it exhausts itself.<br /> Rippernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160566690841415782.post-3627413037973810722023-03-21T12:53:17.819+00:002023-03-21T12:53:17.819+00:00While agreeing with the message, the post confuses...While agreeing with the message, the post confuses metallic lithium with lithium-ion batteries (as used in laptops & EVs) which contain no metallic lithium.<br />This sort of error invites demolishment of the hazard of these incendaries, so please avoid such open doors.<br /><br />A metallic lithium fire is certainly NOT put out with water, though you can get a good explosion this way.<br /><br />A lithium-ion battery can be controlled with water: the objective is to cool the cells that haven't ignited yet.<br /><br />An EV fire produces copious Lithium Hydroxide smoke (a brain drug) and hydrofluoric acid: very nasty indeed. Copius water helps sweep the poison into the drains.Tim the Codernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160566690841415782.post-54670396487812160352023-03-21T12:52:31.135+00:002023-03-21T12:52:31.135+00:00While agreeing with the message, the post confuses...While agreeing with the message, the post confuses metallic lithium with lithium-ion batteries (as used in laptops & EVs) which contain no metallic lithium.<br />This sort of error invites demolishment of the hazard of these incendaries, so please avoid such open doors.<br /><br />A metallic lithium fire is certainly NOT put out with water, though you can get a good explosion this way.<br /><br />A lithium-ion battery can be controlled with water: the objective is to cool the cells that haven't ignited yet.<br /><br />An EV fire produces copious Lithium Hydroxide smoke (a brain drug) and hydrofluoric acid: very nasty indeed. Copius water helps sweep the poison into the drains.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com